Now, let us first avoid the coming complaints, misunderstandings and vitriol that will surely be tossed like so much monkey dung at us from the unenlightened, chimp-like minds of the contrarians out there.
If you choose to interchange the word "suicide" for "assassination" in our opening paragraph, we will grant you license.
Michael Vick has long been determined to have an unfortunate propensity to make poor decisions. His unwise choices are well documented on the gridiron. Forcing passes. Making poor reads. Etcetera. Etcetera.
Yet, both in college and in the pro's, his masters allowed the poor decisions to continue. Sort of the risk versus reward conundrum. His legitimate talent to come up with big plays meant that the poor decisions and lack of ability to make situational reads could be overlooked. And they were. With impunity.
Having cultivated this sense within Mr. Vick that it was ok to make poor decisions and that his innate talents could compensate for his rudimentary abilities in making situational reads and decisions, Mr. Vick was given millions and millions of dollars. And a long off season.
Football is life. It is life to those that play it to support their existence. The field becomes one with day to day living. Talents and thought processes that guide one on the field become intertwined with the day to day. A superstar sees his picture in ads and on TV. In his football uniform. Playing football. He is football. Life is football.
But football, to the non-player, is entertainment and diversion. And entertainment is business.
In one way or another, we all benefit from big business in this country. And at the same time, we are all used by big business in this country.
The picture should be clear.
We are all to blame for allowing Michael Vick to lose sight of who he is. We are all to blame for his becoming disillusioned and believing that living in society is the same as playing football.
By allowing his masters in business and football to assure him that his inability to make good decisions and his "illiteracy" in the realm of the situational read were ok; we all gave him license to make bad reads and decisions.
The Grand Jury that levied an indictment against Mr. Vick simultaneously indicted every fan of football, every buyer of the goods that had Vick's name and image attached and every purveyor of products marketed in connection with Vick.
We were all indicted. As a society.
But only one of us stood up to accept the responsibility.
Michael Vick.
We ask that you take some time to consider the realities presented. That you take a moment to reflect on how you will handle your indictment in this case.
Do you also accept responsibility for your part, as Michael has? Will you plead guilty, or continue to live in denial?
We shall return in a timely manner with full closure in Part II.
128 comments:
Lady Liberty herself would hang her head in somber shame, if she weren't made of steel and copper.
We are all Michael Vick.
Sir, that was absolutely brilliant.
I shall set forth and lash myself post-haste!
"We are all Michael Vick."
you ever call me a coon again, and so help me, i will string you up.
"I shall set forth and lash myself post-haste! "
self flagellation (sp?) will set Michael free!
"Sir, that was absolutely brilliant."
there you go...the stamp and seal of stupidity.
Thank you,sir,for pointing out the obvious.Michael Vick is not just the Nelson Mandela for our time,but Jesus Christ.And is it not significant that god is dog spelled backward?
Sir,the shifting sands of your logic are what great religions are built on.
"but Jesus Christ.And is it not significant that god is dog spelled backward?"
whatchyoutalkinbout, willis?
this is the nation of islam sports blog, homie...
"shifting sands of your logic are what great religions are built on. "
shifting sands of logic are a hallmark of ALL religions, great and small.
Ten bucks says Zeke and Dave are fuckin' each other.
"Ten bucks says"
yea, and if you were right, you'd pay those same 10 bucks to watch. fruit lover.
I PLEAD GUILTY!
Sir, I await your guilty plea in the case of Ken Lay, former CEO of Enron, for enabling him to deceive his shareholders.... for we are all part of the network of electricity in this country.
I await your guilty plea in the case of Conrad Black, media mogul... for we are all part of the free exchange of ideas in this country.
I await your guilty plea in the case of Martha Stewart, master homemaker, for surely you have purchased items at K-Mart, where she sells her wares.
I await your guilty plea in the case of Paris Hilton, for all people in this great nation enabled her to neglect the consequences of her alcohol consumption, considering her widespread celebrity.
I await your gulty plea in the case of Scooter Libby, for it is merely the product of the level of vitriol in modern day political debate.
I'll be waiting. Don't wait on my plea though... I believe in individual responsibility. If I should share the burden of Michael Vick's actions off the field, I should share the proceeds of his actions on it. I'll be waiting for my chunk of his $130 million
"I should also share the proceeds of his great skills. I will be waiting for my chunk of his $130 million."
Sir, most interesting.
You demand your share of the Negro's money.
Yet all the white folks you named, you made no mention of entitlement to their proceeds.
Your hand has been tipped.
We do compliment you though.
You assembled a fine list of apples to compare to our orange.
Delusion, misguided, and completely unrelateable to the case at hand. But, you tried.
A for effort.
F for content.
" If I should share the burden of Michael Vick's actions off the field, I should share the proceeds of his actions on it. I'll be waiting for my chunk of his $130 million "
Sir, why change your wording?
Hmmmm.....again, you have tipped your hand.
And your hand hates Negroes.
wait a second.
this guy compares the people that RUN corporate America to Vick, who is a TOOL of corporate America.
LOL.
omnivore, you couldn't make less sense if you tried.
why is omnivore trying to make excuses?
Vick has ACCEPTED blame!
and, it isn't all his fault.
Sirs, the omnivorous feed on everything.
He is a product of the enticing morsels dispensed by the mainstream media. Gulping everything they have to offer and taking it at face value, no questions asked.
The moment he is confronted by the voice of righteousness, he flees in any direction. Throwing his intellectual feces at reality as he attempts to dismiss the truths of our society.
Drinking the urine that is his logic as he tries to inappropriately contextual'ize the reality with flawed and sightless analogies.
Do not disturb him.
Do not taunt the chimps.
Sir, my current wording is prettier. Ever hear of parallelism? I'm sure your next post will be about how parallel sentence structure accoutns for the subjugation that has imprisoned great Negroes.
Now, the entire point of my comment was to point out the absurdity of shared criminal responsibility. Seeing that you also find such shared responsibility to be indefensible, I will add your retraction of this post to the list of things I'm waiting for.
While I'm waiting... you may consider defending your position rather than calling each detractor of said position a racist. I have made no such statements about your character (or hands), just about your nonsensical musings, all of which come to the same conclusion. To summarize:
White men do hideous things. Included among the sins of white men are all of the sins of Negroes, who somehow are not responsible for their actions. If white men are responsible for the downfall of Negroes, aren't they equally responsible for Negroes' successes? Why do you invalidate the power of your own people this way?
uh.... i'm still here. i never run away from your nonsense; it is far too entertaining
"uh.... i'm still here. i never run away from your nonsense"
Sir, we were speaking of the way your mind retreats.
Not a physical retreat.
But, you help cement our point with your misinterpretation.
Thanks for that reminder.
"Seeing that you also find such shared responsibility to be indefensible, I will add your retraction of this post to the list of things I'm waiting for. "
Sir, we will be happy to retract our post when you make a reasonable, or even semi-reasonable argument against it.
Saying the horrible great of an old white man like Ken Lay stealing pension funds is in anyway similar to the cultivation of poor decision a making skills by a young Negro is purely silly.
How can we take you seriously when you say such things?
It's almost as if you are writing satirical responses to us.
Are you?
I accept my penance more enthusiastically than my brethern, for I am a Ravens fan. When Adalius Thomas broke Michael Vick's leg in the preseason a few years back, Vick was suddenly discarded by the white corporate establishment that created him (except Blank, who made such a show of his willingness to push his servant around in a wheelchair). Desperate for the false attention and love he thought he received, he allowed his associates to establish a legal licensed dog-breeding operation.
At least they loved him, or so he thought. That love was betrayed by a Judas kiss in the form of canine incisors ripping flesh from bone.
Sirs,
What should we do differently moving forward? Am I to sternly rebuke Vince Young every time he one-hops a pass, or make sure he doesn't get fair market value for his services?
just trying to avoid seeing another hero lose sight of who he is... I don't want to love too much again.
" If white men are responsible for the downfall of Negroes, aren't they equally responsible for Negroes' successes? Why do you invalidate the power of your own people this way? "
Sir, you misrepresent our contentions and overly simplify the situation in your effort to further de-power the Negro.
If you choose to purposely misrepresent what we say, at least do us the service of using a disclaimer, maybe add this to every comment you make that mischaracterizes our thoughts:
*not the message of NOIS, but we will pretend that it is so we can argue fruitlessly.
Not only NOIS but two of his most reliable brobots,the inestimable steven a's cheese doodles and of course,the amiable but dim al sharpton's banana hammock have written,and it is so.
Saint Michael has indeed chosen to shoulder the sins not only of corporate America,but all of us, and confess his guilt(with a wink).And while we are apportioning blame,let us not forget the evil dogs,despicable creatures that they are,enticing the innocent Negro boy Vick not with an apple,but a dog biscuit and promises of great riches beyond his imagination.
"let us not forget the evil dogs,despicable creatures that they are,enticing the innocent Negro boy Vick not with an apple,but a dog biscuit and promises of great riches beyond his imagination."
Sir, really.
If you are going to try to make jokes.....
make jokes.
Weak is an absence of power or effect.
Maybe someday your jokes will be weak.
And they will match your mind.
"Mr.Poindexter said...
Not only NOIS but two of his most reliable brobots,the inestimable steven a's cheese doodles and of course,the amiable but dim al sharpton's banana hammock have written,and it is so."
"Al_Sharpton's_Banana_Hammock said...
why is omnivore trying to make excuses?
Vick has ACCEPTED blame!
and, it isn't all his fault."
...and poindexter is calling ASBH dim?...holy macaroni...does the word irony mean anything to you poinie?
People dismiss your case all too quickly.
Yes, it is true, we are all culpable for the sins of the Vick. To a degree more or less.
I do not absolve Mr. Vick of his individual responsibility. He is the meeting of genetics, environment, and time.
Vick inherited the genetics of an athlete. He lives in an environment where athletic ability is given unfettered opportunity often with little responsibility. An athlete really gets by with far more than a nonathlete, bascially because we need his legs, jump shot, etc.
Vick also lives in an era when the black man's path to glory is not always in the law school, or the business school, but on the athletic field.
Further, Vick lives in a era where prejudice reduces the opportunity for a black man, as well as turns justice not so blind eye for him too.
As long as Vick used his legs for touchdowns he was gold. He filled stadia with ticket-holders. He sold sneakers. He fullfiled the goal of the rich to make more money by supplying the 'needs' of the masses. Life was good.
Once Vick violated his public-relations value, he was dropped like a old stale taco.
I would agree with your equation, only I would not agree entirely with the white>>black. I would reformat the equation to rich>>poor.
Rich (or master) demands the poor to perform, be that as athlete, assembly line worker, migrant produce picker, sweat shop seamstress, or even Fedex delivery man.
Poor can be black, yellow, brown, and even white. Yes, the rich don't care about the color, unless color indicates some genetic advantage toward some revenue enhancing skill. Otherwise it's all the same. Poor black = poor white = poor yellow. All to be expolited.
Your message would be broader if delivered on economic terms rather than racial, because -- after all -- it has always been about economics hasn't it throughout time?
You will go to no end to distance your people from any sense of personal responsibility....maybe Vicks parents should take some of the blame instead of his employers or any of us...that is if his parents gave a damn enough to raise him or his equally disgusting brother the right way. They could have had pictures of Vick slashing a dogs throat and you would have blamed a white photographer for taking the picture. As long as you go to such lengths to defend the scum of your people you are nothing more than a joke....speaking of which...why is michael vick going to jail for killing dogs when he has been killing falcons for years and nobody cares?
"Your message would be broader if delivered on economic terms rather than racial"
Sir, your rational response is appreciated. You are a true student of righteousness.
To your point.
While there is a broad truth in what you say, our fight for change and our quest to shed darkness unto light can only be powerful through its concentration.
To broadent he scope of our teachings would in turn lessen the impact. An impact which can no longer be ignored or undervalued.
A shot gun is a good weapon when the target is at close range. Scattering many pellets to do damage.
But our targets are not those close to us.
We are snipers with firing high powered rifles. One shot of knowledge, one kill of ignorance...from afar.
To pick up a shotgun would be to lose our effect.
We concentrate our power.
We wait patiently for the head shot.
We leave the shotgun for the hill billies.
"why is michael vick going to jail for killing dogs"
Sir, you have made a huge leap here.
He is going to jail for "conspiracy".
Killing dogs?
The government has not charged him with that.
Your lies never cease.
A conspiracy is an association of inviduals who intend to do something which would be illegal, with one member of the conspiracy performing an overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy.
This is a conspiracy: A, B, C, and V sit in a room and decide they want to breed pure pitbulls. In V's presence, A, B and C state that they also could fight some of them and make a little extra money and find customers. V, assuming they're joking, remains silent and proceeds to secure the property, build the kennels, and get licensed to breed dogs.
A, B and C operate a dogfighting ring using the property secured by V. V is guilty of conspiracy to commit dogfighting.
Yet, somehow the media is portraying this as something other than what it is.
"He is going to jail for 'conspiracy' ".
NOIS is the truth. Carry on Sir
'Hillbillies' We resemble that remark. (and remember the shotgun is one of the most lethal handheld weapons yet invented)
I understand your wish to narrow your scope.
Don't underestimate the power of the coalition though. And as I said, the issue is economic that cuts across racial borders.
Everyone wants cheap labor, then ignore the problems of servitude later.
thank you
And in my conspiracy description, V is guilty of the conspiracy even if no dogfighting ever occurs.
"Don't underestimate the power of the coalition though."
Sir, your message is appreciated.
"This is a conspiracy: A, B, C, and V sit in a room and decide they want to breed pure pitbulls. "
Sir, may we introduce one more element to your exercise?
We must add that, outside the room, at a later date, the feds add D, E, F, G, H, and I to the equation...telling them that if they don't play the game, they will get jail time.
Sir, I plead guilty.
For the entire portion of Mr. Vick's physically mature life, he has been a physically gifted dog standing out in the brutal, inhumane "sport" that his masters have forced him to engage in. Are we not to blame for the warped sense of "sport" and "recreation" that Mr. Vick has developed? When continuing to support him was no longer in the best interest of the trainers who trained him, the owners who profited from him, and the fans who cheered him, Mr. Vick was chained to a post out of sight, out of mind, and left to die.
"he has been a physically gifted dog standing out in the brutal, inhumane "sport""
i'm going to name my next dog Ookie, in vick's honor.
Oh, I get it. This blog is tongue-in-cheek. Teehee.
Gentlemen --
Congratulations on your post. While surprising, it appears you may be finally seeing the truth.
Michael Vick has long been determined to have an unfortunate propensity to make poor decisions. His unwise choices are well documented on the gridiron. Forcing passes. Making poor reads. Etcetera. Etcetera.
You may be the last to finally admit Mr. Vick's guilt in some most grisly and inhumane crimes, but you've finally come in from the cold. It takes big people to admit when they've been wrong.
We are all to blame for allowing Michael Vick to lose sight of who he is.
Again gentlemen, congratulations. You are correct (and last again) to admit that it is indeed you who are to blame for Mr. Vick's crimes. You who actively seek others to blame and refuse to accept accountability for the criminal element of your society. A generation of black men is disappearing in the streets and all you've done is complain about historical wrongs.
I look forward to your future post where you will hopefully outline some suggested reforms and remedial activities to help pull you out of your rut. Perhaps it is time for you to become your brother's responsible keeper.
"Fastness said... "
change your name....ain't a thing fast or quick about you...
"most grisly and inhumane crimes"
Sir, Mr. Vick plead to conspiracy.
Yet, you've convicted him of something else.
"A generation of black men is disappearing in the streets and all you've done is complain about historical wrongs."
Sir, really?!
That's all we've done?
Hmmm.
Oh, I get it. Tripod fails at subtlety. Teehee.
"Sir, Mr. Vick plead to conspiracy."
As a matter of fact, the only plea Mr. Vick has entered in court to this point is "not guilty." That fact may change next Monday.
"As a matter of fact, the only plea Mr. Vick has entered in court to this point is "not guilty." That fact may change next Monday. "
Sir, *YAWN*.
Fine, on Monday we shall remind you that you were wrong, ok?
Are there any people out there that disgree with what we say, but can actually formulate a cogent argument...or can actually argue the substance...or can actually argue the context of what we say?
The current crop of dissenters is just not up to par with some of the past...
No offense to them.
They just aren't the smart kids in class this go round.
It reminds me of Otter's thrilling and enthralling speech when Delta Tau Delta went on trial in front of the Interfratrnity Council and Dean Woermer.
Move over Spartacus, I AM Michael Vick...
"Tripod fails at subtlety."
Sir, you failed that point long before Tripod.
Trust.
" Otter's"
Sir, while we confess to admiring the good Otter's spirit.
His WASPish demeanor evoked our hate.
I just noticed this shot of enlightenment was labeled Part I. Praytell, will there be a Part II, or will it be suppressed like Mel Brooks' History of the World Part II?
"Sir, you failed that point long before Tripod.
Trust."
Good to see you failed at my point as well.
"why is michael vick going to jail for killing dogs"
Sir, you have made a huge leap here.
He is going to jail for "conspiracy".
Killing dogs?
The government has not charged him with that.
Your lies never cease.
What Mike Vick is doing is copping a plea for conspiracy...why? because his so called "friends" were prepared to tell the truth about how he was involved in the drowning and hanging of dogs that underperformed.... he is doing so to avoid a much longer jail sentence. Again his biggest offense was probably not picking friends like Barry Bonds has...a nice white guy willing to do the time for him.
Vick may never win another NFL game but it sure would make a fun premise for a movie if an angry warden makes him assemble a team of convicts to play the guards...oh wait burt reynolds and adam sandler already beat him to that one...white devils holding down the brothers again!!
When's part 2?
"Good to see you failed at my point as well. "
Sir, sure we did. Tee hee.
"What Mike Vick is doing is copping a plea for conspiracy...why? because his so called "friends" were prepared to tell the truth about how he was involved in the drowning and hanging of dogs that underperformed...."
Sir, really?
Or, possibly, he is only guilty of conspiracy.
That the govt ALSO knows they aren't going to be able to convict him of all those other supposed charges.
Possibly, this is a matter of both Vick and the govt agreeing.
This is Vick's admission that he conspired to help his friends make money.
And the govt admitting that they don't have a strong case for anything else.
You have convinced us.
Justice is served.
"When's part 2?"
what do you care, you won't get it anyway?
What is the Nation's position on upcoming gay acts performed on/by Vick and his expected enjoyment of said acts.
If you recall on yesterday's post, Sebastian said something along the lines of "innocent people don't plead guilty".
As I explained today in the comments, conspiracy is not a high hurdle to prove.
As NOIS keeps trying to explain, Vick plans to plead guilty to conspiracy to dogfight, not killing dogs or electrocuting dogs or fighting dogs.
His guilty plea to conspiracy is in effect an plea of innocent to the other charges, and his innocence was clearly recognized by the Feds, who knew they could not prove the other charges.
Why is this so difficult?
Are there any people out there that disgree with what we say, but can actually formulate a cogent argument...or can actually argue the substance...or can actually argue the context of what we say?
Doubtless there are few who can fully comprehend or provide comparable discourse to your unique lines of reasoning.
"Vick said through a lawyer Monday that he will plead guilty to a federal charge of conspiracy to travel in interstate commerce in aid of unlawful activities and conspiracy to sponsor a dog in an animal fighting venture."
NOIS,sir,there is nothing funny about the tragedy of the mythical hero we know as Michael Vick.
henry the 8th,sir,,I applaud your noble act of rushing to the defense of your fellow brobot.
j-red,sir,pleading guilty to conspiracy is not a 'plea of innocent' to other charges-Saint Michael missed his opportunity to do that when he declined the government's invitation to put his dog in the ring against theirs.His plea was a risk-benefit calculation that may also include him playing Judas in the next act.
I read your blog sometimes, because the writers are intelligent. However, you remind me of friends of my own who are so intelligent, they wrap every discussion within another discussion, within another discussion, in just like the Russian Doll thing, the original point is lost. However, the important act is moving the discussion to one where they "win" the argument - or perhaps invoke an argument to begin with.
You keep saying Vick's only been charged with conspiracy. From the actual court filing:
"… an unlawful activity, to wit: a business enterprise involving gambling in violation of Virginia Code Annotated Sections … and thereafter performing and attempting to perform acts to commit any crime of violence to further any lawful activity…… an unlawful activity, to wit: a business enterprise involving gambling in violation of Virginia Code Annotated Sections … and thereafter performing and attempting to perform acts to commit any crime of violence to further any lawful activity…"
My emphasis added. The crimes of violence - in this case, violence against animals - is part of the conspiracy charge, in a legal sense. Frankly, this could be argued to the ends of the earth, but when Vick is in court on Monday and has to make a statement of fact agreeing that he killed dogs as part of a conspiracy to run an illegal enterprise, he is saying he committed such acts. Then again, he may only make a statement agreeing to other facts in the indictment, so this argument can't be settled legally until Monday, anyway.
You stated: "This is Vick's admission that he conspired to help his friends make money. And the govt admitting that they don't have a strong case for anything else."
But the facts about dog killing, fighting, etc., are part of the case. You can't prove a conspiracy of dog fighting without grounds to prove dog fighting took place in the first place.
Beyond the legal definitions, can we agree that dog fighting is inhumane, or at least cruel? There are plenty of things I can do - for an extremely basal example, I can cheat on my girlfriend - that are not illegal, but are certainly cruel. Again, this may be an argument that has no end.
Also, I fail to see how I personally, or most people, really, are somehow indicted along with Vick. I have never purchased anything sponsored by Vick, any Vick merchandise, and so on. I understand the concept that society is responsible for cultivating his behavior - this is absolutely true, to a significant extent. However, doesn't that diminish those who come from similar backgrounds as Vick - extremely talented, could get away with poor decision making because he was extremely talented - and don't make such bad decisions? Society enables all of us to act in poor ways. So how do we reconcile those who don't make poor decisions with those who do?
I don't know ... I can't really come up with a coherent argument right now. While I appreciate the sentiment of justly pointing the finger at society, at the NFL, at capitalism, at what point do you say, "Besides all these things, what he did was wrong"?
To be clear, Vick hasn't addressed the animal cruelty charges because he hasn't formally been charged yet. Animal cruelty isn't an interstate offense (as conspiracy is), and therefore isn't of the jurisdiction of federal prosecutors; the state prosecutor is supposedly preparing those charges, though. Vick's admission of guilt to conspiracy should by no means be interpreted as a plea of innocence to animal cruelty. As of now, Vick has admitted to everything of which he has been charged.
"pleading guilty to conspiracy is not a 'plea of innocent' to other charges-Saint Michael missed his opportunity to do that when he declined the government's invitation to put his dog in the ring against theirs."
Sir, finally poindexter makes a valid point. His guilty plea IS what it is.
A plea of guilt.
To the conspiracy charges.
And the feds non-pursuit of other charges is what it is....
a formal declaration of their doubting there is a case there.
The govt. has spent enormous resources and $ on this.
It makes no sense not to charge him to the fullest extent of the investigations uncoverings, right?
Anything but would leave the image of the govt picking and choosing how to treat Mr. Vick.
Besides, statistics show that the govt has demanded more time for Mr. Vick's plea than they normall dole out for similar charges...
...but, that is expected.
"You keep saying Vick's only been charged with conspiracy. "
Sir, apparently our argument within the argument within the argument confused you...
we said he is PLEAING to only conspiracy.
Yes, we know.
The indictment made far more accusations.
Thank you.
"You can't prove a conspiracy of dog fighting without grounds to prove dog fighting took place in the first place."
Sir?
Really?
So, conspiracy to assassinate the president would require the assassination of the president to have taken place, too?
You accused us of the "russian doll" argument.
In this case, we can take no blame.
You have confused yourself.
"As of now, Vick has admitted to everything of which he has been charged"
Sir, he hasn't been to court yet.
But, ok.
"Mr. Vick has agreed to enter a plea of guilty to those charges and to accept full responsibility for his actions and the mistakes he has made."
But that was coerced, right?
"But that was coerced, right?"
Sir, you tell us.
You are the one operating under the pretense of having access to special information to this case...
please, enlighten us.
Like I said, "I can't really come up with a coherent argument right now."
Yes, your "argument within the argument within the argument confused" me. It is a riddle, wrapped in a mystery, inside an enigma. Or was that Russia?
You said: "So, conspiracy to assassinate the president would require the assassination of the president to have taken place, too?"
Good point. I suppose there are two questions: Does intent to act matter as much as action? In which case, the Thought Police are on their way.
In the indictment, does "conspiracy" mean the illegal gambling ring, thus the dog fighting is the means to the end, or does "conspiracy" refer to the dog fighting itself, regardless of wagering? Did the indictment mention RICO? Because if RICO is cited, that means it was the gambling and not the dog fighting.
On another note - earlier, you wrote: "Killing dogs? The government has not charged him with that."
Later, in response to my post, you said: "We said he is PLEADING to only conspiracy. Yes, we know. The indictment made far more accusations."
I am confused again.
Conspiracy is an "inchoate offense". The intent to act IS THE CRIME. The only action required is "some overt act in furtherance of the conspiracy."
In this case, if Vick had reason to believe his associates would use his premises for dogfighting, and he made the premises available to them thinking they weren't serious, THAT'S THE CRIME of conspiracy to dogfight.
If Vick traveled from Georgia to Virginia to purchase the property, and he had reason to believe his associates would use it for dogfighting, even if he didn't believe them, THAT'S THE CRIME of conspiracy to engage in interstate travel in aid of an unlawful activity.
As for the state animal cruelty charges, they will be brought if the evidence is there. Not if the evidence is there that cruelty to animals has occurred, which we all can agree there is plenty of evidence to support, but if Gerald Poindexter can link, through reliable evidence, cruelty to animals to Vick himself. We'll see if that happens. We'll see if the same "witnesses" "cooperate" for Mr. Poindexter the same way they did for the Feds.
And as for the indictment v. plea bargain confusion, here's a little basic Constitutional Criminal Procedure.
A prosecutor goes before a grand jury (in the federal system) and presents only his evidence to a group of citizens. They then agree or disagree that there is PROBABLE CAUSE (reason to believe) that the defendant committed the crimes suggested by the prosecutor. There is no defense attorney at this stage and no counterevidence is presented. This doesn't mean jackshit. Ask the Duke lacrosse boys.
The indictment, the list of charges approved by the grand jury, is the charging document. It almost always charges the defendant with more than he's guilty of because the grand jury only saw the prosecution's most favorable evidence.
When the prosecution and defense enter into plea negotiations, often the defense will enter a guilty plea to some offenses, with the agreement that the prosecution will drop the remaining charges. The reward is a lighter sentence than the defendant would have gotten if convicted of those same charges.
Based on what we know now, Vick will plead guilty to the two conspiracy charges, the ones the government needs the least to actually prove, and the prosecution will drop all the other federal charges.
Your confusing yourself with gambling and RICO. The Feds never filed gambling or RICO charges against Vick. They threatened to in order to scare him into pleading guilty to the lightest and easiest to prove charges the Feds actually had. That was the whole "superseding indictment".
Sir,
Thank you for shedding light on my darker side. I had not felt or seen the Michael Vick inside of me until now. I feel reborn. I'm beginning to remember my years at Virginia Tech, when life was so innocent and my schoolwork was all that mattered, with football coming a distant second.
Thank you, NOIS, I now know where I belong.
I will take my inner Michael Vick, and compete with my University's board to make "Urban Dog Training" a class for all.
This article has to be a joke right? No one could possibly defend an admitted criminal. Go read the indictment. He was there when they killed the dogs. The feds win like 95% of their cases. The proof is in the pudding. The guy's an idiot.
Correction... the indictment says his cohorts executed the dogs. However in their plea deals they stated the following...
"“Phillips agrees and stipulates that these dogs all died as a result of the collective efforts of Peace, Phillips, and Vick,” the statement said.
Phillips and Peace also backed up Taylor’s assertion that Vick was involved in gambling."
And who do you think paid for all of the dog fighting equimpment? Who paid for the doggy treadmills, rape stands, etc. You mean to tell me that a man is going to spend money on dogs yet he doesn't know that the dogs are being bred and trained to participate in dogfighting? They obviously weren't selling them for profit. Don't you think he'd be wondering where his profits were from the sale of the pit bulls. No. Because there weren't any dogs being sold as pets. They were being trained to fight. Use your brain.
You can play devils advocate and dispute the allegations ts all you want. In the end, any person with common sense wouldn't defend and admitted criminal's (as of Monday) actions.
You guys are comical.
Sorry kiddo:
Where is the "Nigga Please" button?
As far as I'm concerned, Mike Vick is a political prisoner....the reasons for federal intervention in the first place are questionable, as well as rare in this instance. However, Rick Toochet can rest easy knowing that the feds didn't have a problem with a national multi-million dollar illegal gambling ring involving the greatest hockey player of all time...yep, Rick can rest easy with 2 yrs probation...while the boogeyman Mike Vick awaits sentencing. God Bless AmeriKKKa.
Morons....
""“Phillips agrees and stipulates that these dogs all died as a result of the collective efforts of Peace, Phillips, and Vick,” the statement said."
Sir, collective efforts?
Wouldn't allowing the individuals that ran the day to day operations to use his property be participating in the "collective efforts"?
That doesn't make him the trigger man.
We realize you hate Michael Vick.
And we realize you are forming your thoughts in that light. Attempting to mangle, twist and contort the words of the indictment to fit your goal of presenting Michael Vick as a hands on killer.
But, the wording in the plea does not make it so.
If it were so.
If the govt were so convinced, why would they not stand their ground and demand it? They have already invested countless hours, dollars and resources on this case.
Why not see it thru?
Unless.....
"Morons...."
Sir, be kind.
The feds may read your opinion of them and come after you next.
NOIS,sir,you seem to have 'access to special information to this case' so please be more specific as to the vague 'enormous resources and $' the government has spent in pursuit of Saint Michael.How much?Enormous relative to what?You seem,sir, to be conflating government with the disproportionate media attention this has recieved because of the celebrity status of the accused.
damianpbnj,you nailed it.What you generously refer to as 'discussion within another discussion within another discussion' has been described by more critical readers as 'prevarications and doubletalk' or 'shifting sands'.The host here labors under the impression that a hurricane of verbiage is a substitute for the occasional lack of internal consistency in logic on display.And,of course,there's also the stricter standard of accuracy demanded of commenters as I allude to in the first paragraph.A typical response from the host would include distraction,evasion,and attack,followed by a chorus of self-congratulatory braying from the sycophantic brobots desperate for a belly rub.
"Based on what we know now, Vick will plead guilty to the two conspiracy charges, the ones the government needs the least to actually prove, and the prosecution will drop all the other federal charges."
Begging your pardon, but I'm quite sure you don't know jack shit regarding Mr. Vick's forthcoming plea. It may not even happen--things can change. You will be better served to confine your "what we know" statements to those things you actually know.
I have to ask... do any of you (oops pow, banana hammock, nois, j-red, etc.) actually believe that Vick is innocent, or are you just defending him for the sake of defending him (such as the man Scoop met in the library)?
I can respect the latter, but if you actually think he is innocent, I would urge you to go back and try and earn your GED's.
"government has spent in pursuit of Saint Michael.How much?Enormous relative to what?"
Sir, relative to the fact that they normally defer prosecution to the local level.
That they have spent over a year investigating with the involvement of more than 5 different govt. Agencies.
Relative to the fact that, many claim the main reason that Vick has been pursued so vigorously is not due to his Negro'ness, but just the fact that he is famous. And then, when they have the opportunity to nail him. To bring to light the supposed heinousness of the crimes....the option is to let him plea out on a conspiracy rap.
"by more critical readers as 'prevarications and doubletalk' or 'shifting sands'."
Sir, let's not pretend and use the plural.
YOU are the reader (critical? ha. you mean hateful). There is not some army of readers.
It is YOU that you are refering to.
The argument is made. You are defeated. You make a barrage of meaningless points that have no connection. Yet, WE are the ones that engage in guerilla debate tactics?
"the sycophantic brobots desperate for a belly rub"
Such an unbiased description of those that disagree with you.
Anyone that doesn't fall in line with your convoluted logic, your unsupported suppositions, your plainly ignorant desire to simply disagree to disagree and your complete inability to engage our writings with an open mind and some semblence of reading comprehension is a trusty? LOL.
We'll stick to being accused of "shifting sand" defenses...rather than using your method of defense:
"You are a poopy head because you agree with NOIS"
Can't argue with the intellect that produces that line of rebut.
Rockyjasons: "Based on what we know NOW" means that what we think we know NOW is subject to change later, or a point that is not NOW.
If I had said "Based on what we now know", flipping the words, I'd be implying that we are now certain of something.
"I can respect the latter, but if you actually think he is innocent, I would urge you to go back and try and earn your GED's."
Sir, certainly the govt must think he is innocent of some of the allegations in the indictment.
They are offering the chance to plead guilty to the ones they believe he IS guilty of, and to supress the charges they believe they will have difficulty proving.
Shhhhh.....don't tell the two universities that have awarded the authors on NOIS master degrees that we don't have GEDs. Let's keep that our little secret, k, smart guy?
"Begging your pardon, but I'm quite sure you don't know jack shit regarding Mr. Vick's forthcoming plea. It may not even happen--things can change. You will be better served to confine your "what we know" statements to those things you actually know."
Sir, we grant your wish, and grant your pardon.
And, we suggest that you apply the demand you have just levied at us, to yourself.
We know what you know about the plea.
So, if we know shit, YOU know shit.
But, clearly, you will preach on and on about what you don't know.
And then assault us for the same.
Your bias is only matched by your hypocrisy.
A small mind is a true intellectual handicap. A small, closed mind is an intellectual death sentence.
To where should we send flowers?
Like I predicted,sir,a torrent of words and no answer.How much was that again?
And YOU sir,are certainly the smartest brobot remediating here.YOUR grasp of the obvious is indeed impressive-YOU figured out I was quite consciously repeating my own statements all by YOURSELF.
Your subsequent self-congratulatory touchdown dance,however,is about as pathetic as your apparently belated epiphany that we are all products of our society.Thanks professor.Sir.
Other than Hillary Clinton, Mr.Poindexter is most capable of saying so much without saying anything at all. A remarkable feat considering his space bar is apparently broken.
is this blog supposed to be funny? because it's fucking hilarious.
keep up the good work, dudes!
Painful,sir.Particularly coming from an attorney who thinks a plea bargain is tantamount to a 'plea of innocent'.I was unaware that the University of Phoenix online offered the JD.Congratulations.
And congratulations are in order also to NOIS on his 'master'degree.
I can appreciate how difficult it must have been for a simple minded fellow like yourself as I paused and got my own before continuing on with my professional education.
"A small mind is a true intellectual handicap. A small, closed mind is an intellectual death sentence."
Sirs,
Finally, a death sentence I can support: intellectual!
Alas, the dead cause us no bother, but these dense jackasses just keep going and going...
"Sir, certainly the govt must think he is innocent of some of the allegations in the indictment.
They are offering the chance to plead guilty to the ones they believe he IS guilty of, and to supress the charges they believe they will have difficulty proving."
You know, if I didn't think that I would be attacked for my racism and damned to eternal hell by you for the thought of it, I might argue that the government suppressed the other charges because they were giving preferential treatment to the high profile athlete. Now I don't believe he actually received much preferential treatment, but to argue such would be more in touch with reality than to sanctify him in martyrdom.
"Shhhhh.....don't tell the two universities that have awarded the authors on NOIS master degrees that we don't have GEDs. Let's keep that our little secret, k, smart guy?"
Don't worry, your secret's safe with me... I won't write any letters to whatever shitty college gave you a masters and inform them of how you are embarrassing your alma mater with your ridiculous claims.
A small mind is a true intellectual handicap. A small, closed mind is an intellectual death sentence.
To where should we send flowers?
Perhaps you should send the flowers to Michael Con-Vick...in memorium of his dead NFL career.
Even a guilty plea wont have you acknowledge Vick did anything wrong...that makes you the close-minded fool. Your jackass Malcolm X wannabe act is so tired.
ESPN posted an article on the NAACP's recent comment concerning Vick.
You should drop by for a small taste of the enlightened commentary...
Mr.Poindexter,
My law degree is from a top-tier law school.
Michael Vick entered pleas of "not guilty" at his arraignment. He is now reportedly prepared to plead guilty to two conspiracy charges, but will not change his plea on the other charges. The government is not only satisfied with this, but they are dropping the other charges without a trial.
Arguing whether this is tantamount to acceptance of innocence on the other charges is an exercise in semantics, the lowest form of debate, but one that apparently suits you as we discussed in our little "know now" v. "now know" tete-a-tete.
"Even a guilty plea wont have you acknowledge Vick did anything wrong...that makes you the close-minded fool."
Sir, we have acknowledged!!!
He is wrong for conspiring to help his friends make money.
What do you want us to do?
Acknowledge he is guilty of something he is NOT admitting and something the govt will not be trying him for????
"Your jackass Malcolm X wannabe act is so tired."
And your unenlightened commentary could certainly be put to rest as well.
You are boring. Always have been, and always continue to be. Your comments have been the exact same content from your very first.
And?
"Now I don't believe he actually received much preferential treatment"
Sir, statistics show that the feds usually don't even try these cases.
And that when they do, they don't go after 12-18 months.
Nope, they are treating him just like Billy Bob from the Ozarks.
Excellent point.
"I won't write any letters to whatever shitty college "
We're sure you won't. Since you were rejected by them as an undergrad.
Go HEELS!
""Your jackass Malcolm X wannabe act is so tired."
And your unenlightened commentary could certainly be put to rest as well."
gotta say. i'm with nois on that one.
censored makes the choice to come and read this place. goes out of his way to do it. probably has it as a home page.
if he hates it so, why does he come?
now, THAT is the real jackass.
Vick's decision making on the football field is being thrown under the bus way to severely in this post, and without that the case loses its main point.
Vick has not thrown for more interceptions than touchdowns since his rookie season when those numbers were 2 and 3, so not too important. Certainly his passing reads would not be considered superb, but he was not overly prone to the mistake and in reality it was his lack of touch passing skill which lead to criticism.
So, in essence his decision making on the field is not as poor as you portray it. Perhaps you are being the cynic.
http://sports.yahoo.com/nfl/players/5448/career;_ylt=ArOYCBEFMvW.__j2Rle1um3.uLYF
"We're sure you won't. Since you were rejected by them as an undergrad.
Go HEELS!"
hahahah ohhh i should have known you were a tar heel... completely explains your Duke hatred
Incidentally, I was actually on campus just yesterday wishing I could have been a student there...
@ Simon
Vick played football? Can anyone else here confirm this? I thought he was like an actor or something.
"the lowest form of debate"
Sir, Barrister J-Red,
Unfortunately, we have a handful of unrulies here in class that know no other form.
It's our class, so, much like Michael Vick does for his endeavors; we take full responsibility for their limited debate skills.
We apologize on their behalf.
"and without that the case loses its main point. "
main point? holy christ, i'm gonna slit my wrists. main point?
dude, THERE IS NO POINT!!!!!!
some of guys are just plain maroons!
"Incidentally, I was actually on campus just yesterday wishing I could have been a student there..."
beats community college, don't it, kunta?
vick fouled up, and now he has to do some time.
that's it.
that's all. end of story.
NEXT TOPIC
"in reality it was his lack of touch passing skill which lead to criticism."
yeah, that...and his instinct to run from the pocket on the drop of a dime and not let the routes develop.
That's called decision making.
Google it and provide a link.
""Incidentally, I was actually on campus just yesterday wishing I could have been a student there..."
beats community college, don't it, kunta?"
Sorry, dave, I forgot to finish my last comment.
... I didn't get rejected from UNC. In fact, I remember after my Morehead interview and multiple campus visits, I decided that the lifestyle of breezing through courses with easy A's in search of the next party, while fun, would not be worthwhile in the long run. Therefore, I chose to turn down the scholarship I was offered and head west. And although part of me does still long for the great party atmosphere that only Chapel Thrill can provide, the decision I made has paid off for me enormously.
GO CARDINAL!
"And?"
Owned.
Although, Dave, hopefully you could enlighten us on the community college experience...
With that depth of analysis, I suppose that is all.
Katrina was a storm, that's all.
"beats community college, don't it, kunta?"
LMAO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
"Although, Dave, hopefully you could enlighten us on the community college experience... "
kunta, your sorry grammar gives away that you ain't and never have been a student at Stanford.
now, maybe you work in the campus facilities dept.
those nubby fingers of yours are no good for typing papers, but plenty good for steering a mop.
working at stanford ain't the same as graduating from there.
hope this helped.
"Katrina was a storm, that's all. "
what the hell are you squawking off about now???
Where's Part II???
I have finished my reflections on Part I...now i need the REST of the story.
"kunta, your sorry grammar gives away that you ain't and never have been a student at Stanford.
now, maybe you work in the campus facilities dept.
those nubby fingers of yours are no good for typing papers, but plenty good for steering a mop.
working at stanford ain't the same as graduating from there.
hope this helped."
Oh god... this could get embarrassing for you...
What do you want, proof of attendance?
Want me to fax you my B.S. in MS&E (Management Science and Engineering, for those not familiar with Stanford lingo)?
How about if I email you one of my PWR or IHUM papers? (you wouldn't know what those are either)
Just stop... seriously...
"Want me to fax you"
fax?
you stanford janitors sure have it made.
they let you have a fax machine in the broom closet?
must have one hell of an endowment out there.
nois... you and I may disagree on a number of issues, but I think one we can all agree on is that dave the wave is beyond hope
Zeke,
Freedom Rings Softly:
vick fouled up, and now he has to do some time.
that's it.
that's all. end of story.
NEXT TOPIC
Me:
With that depth of analysis, I suppose that is all.
Katrina was a storm, that's all.
j-red,
next time you are trying to be deep. warn us.
Absolutely brilliant.
He is wrong for conspiring to help his friends make money.
What do you want us to do?
Acknowledge he is guilty of something he is NOT admitting and something the govt will not be trying him for????
You are a true moron...He took a plea to avoid facing the testimony of others involved...others who were prepared to testify that Vick himself hung and drowned dogs. Otherwise why take the plea??it doesnt result in less jail time for him. If you view yourself as a voice of your community then the thought processes and ideas of your people are even more warped than anyone could have imagined.
censored makes the choice to come and read this place. goes out of his way to do it. probably has it as a home page.
if he hates it so, why does he come?
now, THAT is the real jackass.
I read this because it is amusing...i imagine NOIS typing with his horn rimmed glasses and bow tie thinking his warped sensibilities are truth....it is funny stuff.
"He took a plea to avoid facing the testimony of others involved"
Sir, and the others involved took a plea (to testify against Vick) so THEY wouldn't face full charges...LOL.
Your hypcrisy is amusing.
Unsettlingly ignorant, but amusing.
"i imagine NOIS typing with his horn rimmed glasses and bow tie thinking his warped sensibilities are truth....it is funny stuff"
Sir, and we imagine you sitting in your trailer screaming your dictation to your one-toothed wife as she struggles to type in your insipid responses. Furiously puffing away on her Doral Light cigerette while your 8 children run throughout the trailer resort terrorizing your neighbors by ruining their meth highs. Your rusted out 1992 Ford Ranger 'truck' parked under the tarp-less aluminum frame of the carport next to your single wide. A pink flamingo grazing in your front 'yard' as touch of class. A mailbox with a broken latch which holds that 'disability' check that comes out of our taxes each month, but that you call a 'pay check'.
Yes, indeedy, the life of Reilly.
Throwing a bad pass or misreading coverage is bad (sports) decision making. Hanging out with guys from your childhood who are involved in crime or reprehensible activities is a bad (life) decision.
A man who cruelly destroys life because it pleases him to do so is a sociopath.
Your finely worded explanation of Vick's decision making process was probably dead on, except for the responsibility laying on anyone but Micheal. Unless he is truly a poor dumb negro, incapable of independent thought, the blame rest on his $130,000,000 shoulders.
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